Benjamin Keach (1640-1704) Keach served as the pastor of Horse-lie-down church in Southwark, England. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. "I want to have a discussion with you. Before you do, let me ask: would you take the same tone with another man, and do you believe your words honor God? Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. . Craig Keener 25. I dont find that these scenarios were what Jesus intended. This really frustrates me a lot. Wow. As a Catholic, I learned that if someone told me they were Christian, I accepted their word. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. This is what some people have heard their entire life. Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. Now I believe it and I think its what scripture teaches, but how in the world can it be necessary and central to the Gospel if the church didnt even think about it in earnest for 1500 years? He is to me, and that in spite of my categorical rejection of most of what he believes. He shouldnt be let out of his cage yet. That is the only argument they have. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. But the rest of the bad stuff? You might want to read The Institutes some time. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. Systematic theology books are plentiful. 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all have doctrines which are neither, and Anglicans typically hold doctrines similar to one of those three, rejecting the reformed framework which is central to both Arminianism and Calvinism. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. Change). It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. (Well, maybe those who are committed to doing evil to others arent asking those questions, but). It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. I was open. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. If Im wrong, I apologize. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. Bummer. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. You do not have to stay in a church that does not respect your point of view. My bet would be that some (many?) The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. The bullying was behind the scenes. But when I look at others, I take a view that is closer to Arminian: that they have a responsibility to respond to the Gospel that is before them. It might not make people any more interested in Calvinism, but it just bothers me to see a doctrine rejected for the wrong reasons. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. He sets a great example and I appreciate his ability to charitable in discussing beliefs that others dont believe or accept. I need it. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. Below is an OP from 2006. So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. Not really thinking things though. I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. You can only use Bible verses." It feels good to be in a healthy spiritual state again. In practice its a bit like saying Catholicism in the latter youve got everything from evangelical Catholics through liberation theologians and the very conservative ones who want to go back to Latin masses and pre-Vatican II. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. He beat me to the punch. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. I think people are blaming a theology when the real evil is in the hearts of men. (I mean, Star Trek?). Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. And so, I also agree with Nick on this: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you.. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. G. Campbell Morgan 16. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. The promises are over the top. 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. Well see how well I execute on that. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). We can just debate doctrine. Carson Tim Challies Francis Chan (commonly referred to as "Calvinist Light") Matt Chandler Vincent Cheung Ray Comfort Tim Conway Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Mark Driscoll Ligon Duncan Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. . I tend to doubt it but who knows. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Because their first and most precious assumption is that truth is forever beyond any human agency. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. @ janet: And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. B. ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. We are. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. I cant explain it, but the very thought of it is a testimony to His love for us ALL. Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. Something like that. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. Might we call what youre describing love? Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. I think I stated why above. Many of their sayings and actions cannot stand the test of time, the test of logic, and most important the test of loving your neighbour. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. However, they are limited, just as we are. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. I am sorry that you feel this way, because it does sound like you just want an open field assault on Calvinism and for Calvinists to hold their tongue. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! It is not love to push Calvin. I have worked with you and at least a handful of other Calvinists who truly defend the abused/oppressed and I am glad to call you friend. Ultimately I think TULIP is the science behind how salvation operates, and knowing that should breed thankfulness and humility in me. But I dont think I have to pick. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Wade is one of the most loving pastors that we have ever had the joy to meet. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? ). This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. None the less and in spite of his ignorance in all things spiritual, he came to trust the Savior in 1973. all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. I know the WCF does not say it. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. The crazy cycle can lead to suicide or walking away from God entirely. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. "A missionary is a qualified Christian sent out under the authority of a local church to an area of recognized need in order to pursue the work of the Great Commission." But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. Wow! Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, "I believe" andcrossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. @ Julie Anne: A must-read article from Christa Browns blog: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, Im sorry that I was not clear. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. And toss in a side dish of I cant be wrong. I just ordered the book! You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. With the Internet, you never know. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. I would disagree that anyone on TWWand I have been reading here a long timehas misrepresented Calvinism. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. I will be honest JeffS and JeffB , I am often confused by the moving target that you described before. The Calvinistas act on a lot of things. (an extremely brief synopsis:) Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. 8520 / YR. New Geneva Theological Seminary - Colorado. As you know, it was not written by Calvin. The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. We are very clear that we do not see men as the only abusers nor abuse inherently a gender issue. One more thing. Do you share these thoughts? FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Editors Note: The list is not meant to be exhaustive and will be updated periodically. But if you think about it, thats not all that surprising. This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. The seeds of justification by doctrine were sown a long time ago. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. CALVIN! His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. Calvinism may be cool right now, but it doesnt reflect the God I have known and loved for over 40 years. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. * Okay, end of sermon. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. As Ive said, I dont even like the word Calvinist. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. Prayer Requests @ Daisy: Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. @ JeffB: And this is the crux of the problem. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. Which also prove that God does not fit into our nice, neat packages. There is a new evangelism taking place. It was populated by extremely insecure . Mohler is either clueless or his inflated view of self distorts what he has done to the Southern Baptist Convention. The person who said this will one day stand before God and have to explain why hepronouncedyou, a child of God who is now standing withthe throngs of heaven with a crown on your head, a non-Christian. Yet, their theology is reformed. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom CALVIN! Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. But I know the principles are the same. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. Even the Bible uses hyperbole to make pointsa lot! Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) . That should be enough to cause himto squirm. God is NOT in control. As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. Thanks. 2. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. His interpretation of Christianity, advanced above all in his Institutio Christianae . you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. Declarations of faith. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. We often find it difficult to tolerate uncertainty, so we do anything to avoid that. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. I am sure that there are other places that approach things this wayI just hadnt found them. thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Who did he think he was? Yes, God loves you. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. I understand that, and I certainly dont look down on you. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. @ JeffB: @ Daisy: The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. It must start somewhere and with those who are willing to give up their cherished arguments for the sake of something better. I think you will see that there are real differences: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? I think you may have answered that in your post: I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. I dont see you behaving as a bully. Neither is TULIP. My bet would be that some (many?) I realize that, even with these qualifications, there are those who find such a God abhorrent, and that there are some who will be upset by the notion of such a God, probably because of some terrible thing they went through. Why did I smile? There are some who would consider me non charitable. That is biblical. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. @ Daisy: I hear the person,"Calvin," discussed more than "Jesus." But I urge you to be careful in trying to correct what you see as a misunderstanding especially if the person you are correcting has dealt with abuse. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. * Okay, end of sermon. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. Here is the question. Groovy, man. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. I think a better question would be: Why should He want to stop me? Ill have to look that one up. Jeff S, As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) By wrong, do you mean untrue? I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. etc. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Seconding Numo, there are seats left at my table.